Robbie Rozelle: Mr. Herman! I am so honored to be talking to you…

Jerry Herman: Thank you, thank you…

RR: Your scores are among my favorite scores of all time.

JH: Well, I’m very, very thrilled that they are finally putting “Grand Tour” on CD—it’s the only show of mine that isn’t a CD… I’m delighted about that.

RR: I’m like Rain-Man of musical theatre, but I’ve only ever heard two or three songs from “The Grand Tour,” so I’m thrilled to finally be hearing it!

JH: I’m so happy about it.

RR: Happy birthday, by the way…

JH: Almost birthday…

RR: It’s your 70th?

JH: Yeah…

RR: Don’t say that with such sadness!

JH: It’s hard to realize all that… I feel great, and that’s the important thing!

RR: Let’s talk about you growing up in the theatre. What was the first musical you saw?

JH: “Annie Get Your Gun,” with Ethel Merman. And it honestly—you asked a good question, because it honestly changed my life. I remember coming home, I was… I don’t know, I must have been a young teenager, I couldn’t have been more than 15 or 16… I came home, and I remembered being able to play—because I play by ear—four or five songs that I had never heard before in my life. I thought, “What a gift… what a lovely gift this man named Irving Berlin has given me!” It made me want to do the same thing.

RR: It’s a marvelous score…

JH: It really was an important night in my life. My parents loved musical theatre, and so they would take me, you know, with them, when I became old enough. They had no idea what they were doing! They created this theatre-crazed kid! That was really how it started.

RR: Thank God they took you! The first show you wrote was a revue called “Parade.” I recently acquired a million—I collect Playbills, and I got a ton recently. And among them was a playbill for “Parade.” That, and the original “Jerry’s Girls,” with Alix Korey… I nearly fell over; I was so excited…

JH: Oh my goodness! That really is something! I, of course, have those things, but very few people have those. That’s a nice collection that you’ve got there…

RR: You’re first musical comedy was…

JH: “Milk and Honey…”

RR: That opened in 1961.

JH: ’61. And I was nominated for a Tony Award, and so… I was very young, and very inexperienced. So to hear my name called with Richard Rodgers and Noel Coward was probably the most thrilling thing that you could imagine. This kid, suddenly being thrust into the middle of that kind of world… it really was a lovely experience. It was an easy show to work on, and the people were so kind to me. They didn’t treat me like the new kid on the block, and it was a wonderful experience. And I thought, “Oh, they’re all gonna be like this!” (laughs) Most of them were, honestly.

RR: Out of that, came “Hello, Dolly!”

JH: David Merrick came to that, and asked if I would have a meeting with him. I didn’t know what he wanted, but it was David Merrick, and I was thrilled to meet him. He said he was working on a musical version of “The Matchmaker,” which he had produced as a play, and he was interested in me. But he wasn’t sure if I was American enough. That was all I had to hear. So I went home, wrote four songs, brought them back to him on Monday morning after the weekend, and he was floored by the fact that I had been able to write four songs that fit very neatly into the script in that short period of time, you know? I think he was more impressed with that than he was with the songs. I got the job immediately. It was the real turning point of my life.

RR: Three of those songs stayed in the show?

JH: Exactly as they are. Without a word or a note changed. That was a nice experience. A little scary—he frightened me…

RR: He frightened a lot of people… The show brought you your life-long friend, Carol Channing.

JH: Yes it did, yes it did. We just, to this very minute, felt like we were meant to know each other, and work together. It’s a wonderful relationship.

RR: But the show was not written for her?

JH: No, Merrick told me to write it for Merman. So I wrote all the show with her notes, those famous long notes that she sang. And then, when Ethel notified us that she didn’t want to hear the score because she didn’t want to feel frustrated that—she had made a decision not to spend anymore time in a dressing room. I was absolutely devastated, I really was. But, as it turned out, it was better than what I had imagined, because Gower Champion suggested Carol. And when I met Carol, I knew that she would bring something absolutely unique to the role. And in spite of the fact that I had to change notes and leave some songs out, and all that business, it was a wonderful experience. It also taught me a wonderful lesson that I have always clung to through the years: to make the star comfortable. If you make the star comfortable, you’re gonna sound good. So it was a wonderful experience.

RR: I remember seeing the ’95 revival of it. The friend of mine who went with me said he had never seen the look of pure joy as I sat watching, mesmerized by this music and Carol. So funny…

JH: Awww. It was a wonderful combination… it was one of those, you know, marriages that we didn’t expect.

RR: It was so perfect. So perfect.

JH: Perfect, yes.

RR: Of course, you followed that with another female driven…

JH: Oh boy. “Mame” was a total joy. “Mame” was maybe the most fun I ever had in the musical theatre. Hard to decide between that and “La Cage,” but those were the two that were without any problems… I didn’t have to change anything in either shows… they were just perfect for me.

RR: Did you write “Mame” for Angela?

JH: No. I wrote “Mame” for the character, and had no idea who was going to do it. Then, when we started the search, I remember having seen Angela in “Anyone Can Whistle,” which only ran for nine performances. But I used to go see everything in those days. I remembered her belting out a wonderful song in Act One, with a real powerhouse voice, and I told the producers that I thought we should see her. They really didn’t want to see her. They said, “This is the lady who plays everybody’s mother.” And I had to finally say, “Would you do it as a favor for me? I have never asked for anything. I have given you a score that you are crazy about. I am asking for one favor. Bring Angela Lansbury to New York.” And she got the part.

RR: I think even more fascinating than the people who played Mame are the people who ALMOST played Mame. Judy Garland… I think that is one of the theatre’s greatest travesties, that she never played that role…

JH: I do too… I do too…

RR: And I was talking to Stephen Cole, and he told me that Bette Davis was interested.

JH: Bette Davis wanted to do Mame or Vera, she didn’t care which, she loved it so much.

RR: But when she went to the show, it was being done in the round. She left a note at intermission on her seat, saying, “I can’t do this!” I think that is one of the funniest stories I have ever heard. You teamed up with lovely Miss Lansbury again for the marvelous “Dear World…”

JH: For a show that I am off to see at Sundance…

RR: With Maureen McGovern.

JH: With Maureen McGovern. You know everything about me! I love it! She learned the score here at my house, and it is a thrilling sound, to hear those songs. Absolutely thrilling, you have no idea how amazing it is. And that was when she was learning it. So now, I call her all the time, she calls me… they are so excited. I’m going to see the last week of previews and the opening, to put my oar in, and I am so excited about it. I love that score.

RR: Has the book been rewritten?

JH: Yes, it’s a lovely, clean, tight, version of it. It was overwritten, originally. It sort of meandered all over the place. But this script is right on. I’m very pleased with the whole thing. So I have that to look forward too…

RR: I think some of the songs in that show are the best you’ve ever written. The “Tea Party” sequence, and “I Don’t Want To Know…” I think that’s one o the best songs you’ve ever written.

JH: I do too… If you had to ask me very quickly for three of your absolute favorites, “I Don’t Want To Know” would be one of them.

RR: Now… you followed that with what is the best score you have ever written, in my opinion.

JH: Oh my God, we must be twins! That is my favorite!

RR: “Mack And Mabel.” I think it is the biggest crime of your life that you weren’t Tony nominated for that score.

JH: Can you believe that? I still can’t believe that. It does make you realize that awards are just pieces of paper or little silver circles. They really don’t always fulfill their jobs, as awards. I’m not afraid to say that I should have WON the Tony for that, not only be nominated. To not be nominated was such a hurt that it almost stopped me from wanting to write. I thought, if I write a score like this and I don’t get nominated, what am I doing it for? But, you know, that’s something you get over. You pick yourself up, and you go back. And then, I did “The Grand Tour,” which is what you’re calling about.

RR: Yes. “The Grand Tour.”

JH: That was a very nice experience. That was an odd one. That got some superb notices. Time Magazine just adored that show, and when I saw the review in Time, and also Clive Barnes in the Times gave it a rave also. And when I saw those two reviews, I thought, “Oh boy! Here’s another big one!” But for some reason, the audiences weren’t interested in the subject matter, I don’t think. And it just meandered for a couple of months and disappeared. I’m delighted that there is such a thing as CDs, because people will be able to hear it now. It’s a score I love a lot. I love, “I Belong Here.”

RR: “I’ll Be Here Tomorrow.”

JH: That’s my theme song. It really is. That’s how I close all my concerts. I’m doing a series of ASCAP concerts all over the country, and after our curtain call, I go to the piano and sing “I’ll Be Here Tomorrow.”

RR: Is this the concert you’re doing with Paige O’Hara and Jason Graae?

JH: And Karen Morrow, yes. We’re touring all over the country and bringing Broadway to college kids who in many cases have never seen a Broadway show. So, it’s a very worthwhile thing, and I feel I’m doing something important when I do those evenings.

RR: I’m also told you’ve re-written “I’ll Be Here Tomorrow,” to reflect September 11th.

JH: Yes. I just added a line, “It’s simply called surviving,” instead of “My talent is surviving.” The talent line was written for Jacobowsky, who considers his greatest talent of being able to survive. It really isn’t rewritten, I’ve just changed that line, and put a more tidy ending on it… and it gets em. Because it’s very 9/11 oriented, which I didn’t know when I was writing it…

RR: Now, in the show, there was a scene that takes place in a convent that originally took place in a brothel. And they just painted over the set. How did that happen?

JH: (laughing) When you’re out of town, you do crazy things. The pressure is so great. The audience didn’t seem to like the brothel very much, so our director said, “Let’s make it a convent, and it will be sweet with this little Jewish man and a bunch of nuns around.” It really was kind of sweet; I liked it. We did a lot of changes on that show, but the main songs have stayed the same.

RR: You had a fantastic cast. Joel Grey, Florence Lacey…

JH: Dear, dear, sweet Florence… I love that girl.

RR: Ron Holgate, and I didn’t know, but you had a future writer and director in the chorus, Mark Waldrop.

JH: Yes! Mark was just a delight to work with, and turned out to be this wonderfully talented director. I love Mark; he’s a wonderful human being. We had a lovely, lovely company. And a very good time in San Francisco. The town just welcomed us, which was very nice.

RR: Tommy Tune came in for a bit… How much did he restage?

JH: He did some very clever restaging of a couple of numbers, and helped us tremendously.

RR: You kind of took a vacation after that…

JH: I took a vacation, and one day I went to see a movie, and I walked out of the art house it was playing in, and it was! Thank God I saw that film.

RR: “La Cage Aux Folles…”

JH: Just glorious.

RR: I have never seen it. I keep trying; I fell in love with the score.

JH: Just a totally satisfying evening… It worked like a charm…

RR: I read recently that it is headed back to Broadway.

JH: Yes, we are going to bring it back. As soon as Harvey opens and becomes the hit of Broadway in “Hairspray,” which I know he will be… and then we will get ourselves into getting “La Cage” back. I thought I would be retired by now, but it seems to be just the opposite.

RR: Don’t retire ever, please! You have a new show in the works, “Miss Spectacular.”

JH: I am in love with it. It’s got some of my best melodies and best lyrics. I don’t know what’s going to happen to it as a show, but I just wanted the world to hear a new score from me.

RR: What’s happening with the “Mack & Mabel” revival?

JH: That’s going to happen sometime this next year at the Harvey center in Houston.

: Are Douglas Sills, Donna McKechnie and Jane Krakoswski still attached?

JH: Not Jane. We’ve been talking to Kristin Chenoweth, but I don’t know if she’s going to be available yet.

RR: So, what’s up with you writing a song for Barney?

JH: Just one song… a little nothing.

RR: I thought, “Why is this man writing for dinosaurs?”

JH: A lady, who is the lady who created Barney, is a dear friend of mine, asked me to write a title song for one of the movies, and I did. It was just a favor… sometimes you do things like that.

RR: I know there is a TV production of “Mame” in the works…

JH: It’s just being talked about. I haven’t been able to make peace with the way they want to rewrite it, so… right now, it’s in limbo. But there is also a new TV version of “Hello, Dolly!” that is very close to being signed and sealed.

RR: That’s fantastic! Hollywood wasn’t very kind to you…

JH: To either one. Eventually, I’ll have both of them on film as they were meant to be.

RR: You worked with Michael Stewart many times, and with him on “Grand Tour.” How did that come about?

JH: A lady named Diana Shumlin, a producer, brought it to Mike, and Mike brought it to me. I didn’t really want to do it, but he said, “Oh come on, it’s us!” And I couldn’t refuse him; I liked him so much. So we did it. It was a very pleasant experience, but it just wasn’t a blockbuster. But I’m happy that people will hear it.

RR: It did receive a revival Off-Broadway in ’88.

JH: Yes, and that was wonderful! Absolutely wonderful!

RR: I’m also told that a book of lyrics in the works, compiled by Stephen Cole and Ken Bloom…

JH: I’m delighted to see my words in a book like that, so I’m looking forward, very much, to having that. We’re not set with a publisher, but it’s on my agenda of things to do.

RR: Finally, this is Gay Pride weekend. How did you spend it?

JH: I was in the parade, in Los Angeles, in the back of a convertible, with the LA Gay Men’s Chorus singing “Before The Parade Passes By” right behind me. So, I was very much a part of it.

RR: Thank you for taking time to talk to me, Mr. Herman. Your work has meant a lot to me.

JH: You’re very welcome. I’m glad we got to talk.

© 2004 Ghostlight Design